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Santos
08/07/2014, 10:39
Siguiendo el post de la subida de C&J hay teneis un extracto de los posts de un forero que en el 2008 posteo durante unos meses en AAAC. Da un monton de informacion acerca de como se fabrican los zapatos en Northampton.


Hi, stumbled across this place by accident, and im amazed to find you all discussing the shoes that i make every day at work! Im currently working at Trickers, have worked at others too such as Lobbs and have family working at C&J, I can assure you that if the shoe is goodyear welted, it is made completely here in Northampton.

Cheaneys is owned by the Churches group, so a Cheaneys shoe is basically a Churches shoe on a Cheaneys last and pattern, they are both owned by Prada.

As for shoes made abroad, we make a very small amount of glued soles, maybe 40 or 50 pairs a year! If required, from time to time, work is subbed out to 'stuck-on' manufacturers, overseas, to make a more slimline or sporty shoe, as most of the manufacturers left here do not have the machinery to make these, it all went abroad, years ago now, as its far cheaper to import than manufacture. This type of shoe is cheap to make, doesn't last long and cannot be re-soled, you guys don't seem the types to be buying these shoes though, you all sound like connoisseurs.

Concerning other questions asked in this thread, hmm, Trickers factory shop does not sell firsts, only seconds, as do all factory shops, firsts are available on Ebay I believe, although its random, would normally state in the ad.

Although I work at Trickers, if I was buying a mid-range channelled or light shoe (Edward Green and John Lobb being top of the range, Trickers, Churches, Cheaneys and C&J being 'mid-range' and Loakes, Grenson, Sanders etc being the lower) I would have C&J, they really are well made (you guys say your shoes are well made, but I actually SEE them get made). If you want a boot with a nice double sole then Trickers are the best at this, its our niche really.

I seem to be making a lot of sale shoes for Jermyn St this week, all on the same last, the 'stow boot' one, which we just call 'heavies', although these are the shoe versions, brogues and plain fronts, some with a split reverse storm welt and some with a flat welt, all with a double leather sole, all tan or black though, not had any brown ones yet so unsure if there will be any at all! we have a thousand pairs to get through so dont expect the sale to end

Lastly, you cant really go wrong with any shoes made in Northampton, and thanks a lot for keeping me in a job!



EG and Lobbs shoes are more traditionally made than ours, they are bedlasted, pulled on by hand, Lobbs make 100 pairs per day, EG less, something between 20 and 50 per day, there are more man hours going into their shoes, more hand work at lasting, and a lot more time spent on finishing them after the shoe is constructed, they are more likely to use only the most expensive leathers as they can sell more of these at higher prices due to their name, and hand lasting methods, so yes, they are using better leathers than say 50% of other shoes being made elsewhere, but the price offsets this, the others are using these materials for their top lines only.

When you last by hand you can use more delicate leathers, if you put that same leather into a machine laster, you are inevitably going to have some damages, which costs money, so a more durable leather is used, this work isnt suitable for a lot of the bigger manufacturers who make more pairs per day to fulfill orders, its really only for lobbs and greens to make. We make 200 pairs a day, C&J over 400 pairs a day, churches similar, its just not practical for us to make this shoe on a regular basis. A hand lasted shoe is far superior to a machine lasted shoe, it gives a much better feather, enabling a much closer stitch and trim, and is an artform, the true skill of shoe making that hasnt changed for hundreds of years.

An example of why some brands are cheaper than others is that most of the cheaper lines are stitched aloft, where the groove is cut into the sole as it is rounded, and then stitched into the groove, if the shoe is channelled it is slit when rounded, then opened on another machine, stitched , then solutioned inside the channel, then rubbed down when dry, also 90% of our channel have a 'london waist' which is bevelled, and more time is taken to build this up, then the finished sole will be hand inked in a fancy design, obviously the cost of these man hours have to be passed onto the customer.

That pair of loakes posted is an example of this, they are stitched aloft with basic wheeled design on the bottom, its much faster to make. Also some companies have to lower prices to stay in business, the shoe trade is dire nowadays, in years to come there will only be the likes of lobbs and greens left that are made in england, we closed one of our english shops the other year, not enough business in the UK, most of our work is for Japan, same as a few others, luckily for us they are absolutely crazy about english shoes. Ive already been made redundant once, some guys i work with have had it twice, experience is nearly non existent now when looking for workers as people are unwilling to risk redundancy in their later years. Ive had to be loaned out to Lobbs before to do some sewing for them after hours when their guy left to go work at greens, and last year C&J were prepared to take someone off the street to teach welt sewing, the average age of the workers in some places is 55, so its not looking good.


Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Gander View Post
That *is* quite depressing!

Tricker (welcome, and thanks for joining the group by the way!), do any of the shoemakers offer internships or similar training geared towards getting youth interested in the craft? The reason why I am asking is that in Canada we're facing a serious shortage of skilled tradespeople, and in response several occupational councils and other organisations have designed promotional campaigns and other activities aimed specifically at youth, to educate them about the opportunities. I'd be curious to know whether such activities might be feasible?

There might be real potential in showing people that shoemaking isn't just a job, but an opportunity to craft something truly beautiful that can last a long time - sort of a way for the craftsperson to be immortalised, after a fashion. Just a thought.

Geoff
There is a city and guilds, NVQ scheme, it was started about 13 years ago now, I was the first person to take the course and helped the assessors set a lot of the tests, that was when i was working at Lotus who produced the thomas bostock and technic shoe company lines after they closed down. I was in the local newspaper when i passed it, they only had 2 stages then, now a third has been introduced and my friend who does the bespokes upstairs just passed level 3, he completed it in 4 months and its a 12 month course, unfortunately these qualifications dont mean anything to the employers, experience is everything.

Locals see factories close down, everybody is going to university to get a ten a penny IT degree and nobody is interested in learning the trade, the other thing that puts people off is that when your fresh into the trade, you start on the bottom procedures at low pay and if there is no training scheme offering different grades of pay when fully trained, you dont get the opportunity to better yourself quickly, having to wait for somebodys retirement to get the chance to learn a new skill. I was lucky, 12 months into the job I was trained on Toe lasting due to an impending retirement, from there I worked my way around the room, off my own back when I got ahead on my job, learning every single procedure in the making room from the old boys doing them, also a couple in the finishing room, I am now one of the highest skilled operatives in the town and could get a job in any place due to ex managers and supervisors working in nearly every factory in town, I earn a top wage in the trade, I quickly realised this was the only way to get the money. I work with guys twice my age who dont even have 1/10 the skills i have, they have done 1 procedure only their entire working life. Every job apart from lasting is simple muscle memory and knowledge of setting up the machine for different types of work, people have different learning curves and Ive had to give up on a few young guys when training them as it was producing too many rejects, if the money isnt there, people leave to better their financial situation. There is a few guys on the 4 top jobs in making who also wont train others, they see it as a threat to their own job security, when redundancies come round, if you are the only guy there who can do a major operation you are not going anywhere, its also less competition for the same job in another place.

Its sad because skills are lost this way.



Tricker that is even more depressing! It sounds as though the managers of the shoe factories are not interested in training and staff development! If so no wonder the shop floor staff aren't either! It all sounds rather short sighted on the part of the Directors and Senior Managers - akin to what killed off most of British Industry in the 1980s ( plus other factors too).


One of your posts raised another question in my mind. As you say, cheaper shoes use open stiching on the soles - you seem to imply this is a sign of a cheaper shoe, yet Crockett and Jones use open stiching on their soles. It is only their Handgrade collection that uses closed channel stiching - well, you know this anyway. My point is this: Are you saying that C&J benchgrade are cheap shoes ( not price but quality) because of this - earlier you said they were very well made shoes. Forgive my confusion, but I would find it really helpful if you could clarify this.
C&J do 50/50 channel and stitched aloft, I nearly took a job I was offered there 2 years ago, but was offered a raise to stay at Trickers so didnt, my dad works there, their lasting is the best I've seen done on a machine, they have a state of the art toe laster, its an incredible piece of machinery. Anyway, the reason a grooved sole shoe is cheaper is because it doesn't involve as many operations to make, the sole doesnt need to be soaked for a long time, and nobody has to stand there for half a day meticulously solutioning adhesive into the channel and doing the very tiring work of rubbing them back down on a spinning wheel, the workers are paid less as a result and the saving is passed on to the customer, it has no reflection whatsoever on the quality of the upper or lasting, the speed at which their shoes is made is impressive, their sole stitcher flies round the shoe at twice the speed of ours because their work is perfectly made, you have to remember that us shoe makers are paid via a piece work bonus system so everything we do has a value to us and the company, they pay us more per pair of channel than stitched aloft.

What you say about the management not being interested in training, so true, they dont care until it actually happens that they need somebody, they generally have no experience of the making of the shoe and believe that tom, dick or harry from the local job centre can learn it in a week, its a joke, i knew more about making shoes than my factory manager does now when i was 25, he is 63, and believes it to be the easiest thing in the world My supervisor has never made a welted shoe in his life, he worked at toe-tectors for 30 years making safety boots, completely different.

Churches do quite well, I havent been in there for a number of years, I cant say too much about them, you probably see more of their shoes than I do, from my point of view as a maker, its lasted decent, would make my job easier, my point of view of the shoe is from the bottom up, I handle them upside down all day, I take no notice of the uppers, thats lastings responsibility, I go on how well made the shoe is, as like I say we all use pretty much the same components, difference in color is usually down to burnishing and creams added in the shoe room where the women work before its boxed.




Originally Posted by Groover View Post
Many thanks for your insights, most helpful.

Could you advise which range of your shoes have closed channel soles, I've seen various pictures of certain styles, some do, some don't.

Thank you in advance.
sorry, i forgot this one, in answer to your question, ALL our light shoes have a channel sole, we only do stitched aloft grooved work on a light shoe if it is for the sale, we dont do too many of these. Any shoe with a double leather sole and split reverse storm welt is stitched aloft, the split toe loafers with a standard beaded storm welt are channel, its impossible to channel a rubber sole. I cant list all our styles, we call them by the last shape and type of shoe, channel, heavy, rubber, crepe or vibram, we like to keep it simple :icon_smile_big:
Our site doesnt list hardly any of the shoes we make so I cant copy paste from there im afraid


Grenson are making very few pairs of shoes nowadays compared to what they used to produce, I cant comment on the workmanship of them, same with Sargents, as they are not in northampton town centre so Ive never been in them, worked with people who have though.

Basically we are all copying each others shoes to try to get business, thats how it works, some factories are more geared towards certain styles though, or have certain shapes of last that buyers prefer, we all source the same materials, and the only difference really is that your lobbs and greens are hand lasted and all the rest use a '4A' pull toe laster to automate lasting, we all machine welt and sole stitch, unless you order handmades, then they are hand lasted and hand welted to a hand made insole, still machine stitched though. Standard of all the companies left are quite high, if it wasnt they would be out of business, when my dad started work there was a shoe factory on every street corner in Northampton, now very few remain, As a result the 'Made in England' stamp has increased the value of english goodyear welted or handmade shoes, its really what your paying for, tradition and brand and the assurance that the best materials possible were used in the making



Ahh, you actually want made to measure lasts knocked up, yeah, I see what you mean now, sometimes we call just handmade bespoke, and not only the custom lasts, the finishing techniques will be the same on both though, and the making process is identical, so lobbs st james will be doing it the same as EG's, and i still stand by the branding being the major difference in price.

The problem with materials used is that the quality of leather just isnt what it used to be, it gets harder to source the best skins and any top shoe being made in England will be definately using the best available, neither would be inferior. I dont see any difference in either brand my self, in view of how well the shoe is made and what from

Santos
08/07/2014, 10:40
Aqui hay mas:


EG shoes take longer to make, more time spent equals more care taken, although both make a very good shoe, if the shoe is truely bespoke and it is hand welted thats the price difference there. Both companies are using the same materials in terms of quality. After that, your paying for the stamp on the sole and sock.

I make shoes in northampton btw, this is how i know, Ive been in the factories

Esto es muy bueno y sorprendera a mas de uno



yes they all get the same components, just get made on a different shape last, unless youre buying them in the sale from jermyn st. then they are old stock materials that didnt quite make the grade and need using up
You've mentioned this before. Just to clarify, shoes on sale are made especially?


every shoe factory has a period in the year when they make 'sale shoes', its just using up old stock that is out of spec or b grade materials etc, to get a return on money spent basically, we all do it, they are not the only shoes which go on sale but the majority are specifically made for it, yes

Trapo
08/07/2014, 14:45
Muy interesante, Santos. Especialmente lo de los zapatos para rebajas. Una duda al respecto, ¿esto incluye los zapatos que rebajan en las tienda multimarca? Ahora mismo están de rebajas en Leffot y tengo curiosidad por saber si los zapatos difieren de lo que ofrecen normalmente.

Sr.ruso
08/07/2014, 16:12
Según comenta la industria del calzado ingles estaba en decadencia en el 2008,yo creo que siempre existirá principalmente por el prestigio de algunas marcas y el caché que les proporciona fabricar en Northampton , es interesante también que la mayor parte de la producción vaya destinada a Japón.
En cuanto a lo de las rebajas me cuesta creerlo pero intentare no comprar en rebajas .

rgonzsol
08/07/2014, 18:06
Muy interesantes post, se le veía quemado al chico.

Me ha sorprendido lo de la época de rebajas, entiendo que se refería a venta directa vía web o a sus tiendas, y no a tiendas multimarca que tendrían estocaje de los mismos.

Un saludo.


Enviado desde mi Nokia 3310 con Tapatalk

NeyZan
08/07/2014, 18:22
Tremendo post! Me lo guardo! Vaya tela lo de las rebahas