Calidad de una corbata. [Archivo] - Rincón de caballeros

corteitaliano38

21/02/2016, 16:37

Me interesa Sarto, ¿podrías ponerlo?

Corte esperaba tu respuesta. Por eso pongo (dejemos que nos deleiten los profesionales).

Saludos cordiales.

A ver, esta en Ingles, no se si se van a ver las fotos. Muchas corbatas son hechas por mi

Lo publique aqui, me costo varias horas de escribir. Deberia hacer un blog, pero ya hice uno y no me gusto nada la experiencia y pido perdon por ella.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/508123/neckties-a-discussion-thread/600

http://www.tie-a-tie.net/blog/7-fold-ties-what-it-means/

7 fold, here I go on the way are made on Naples and I was learnt.

The 7 fold ties come from an ancient Neapolitan thing that was making a tie without interlining and using only a piece without any sewn, to make bulk, they folded the silk into several folds. I do not know if big silk sheets as today existed at this time, so I got my doubts about this story. I have done single piece ties with no sewns on it but with modern loom made silk sheets of circa 2 meters.

Then on the 90s, after the boom on the 80´s of Milanese Italian brands since Miami Vice´s Armani, Versace, etc , the Neapolitans followed with the actual 7 fold (which is technically a 6 fold as Hober pointed out) no one knows who made it first, only that was made a commercial success by Ciro Paone of Kiton (maybe due of his commercial exporting power) That is what I was told in several houses. I do not know if this is true or just a legend. I just repeat what I have been told.

That tie is a more "economic", since the real 7 fold made of a single piece, I just wrote would cost 300-500 today if were made. A friend did a limited series of cashmere from only a piece sold at 500 euros, for celebrity clients who like to show off Vicuña 30.000 euros overcoats, Bentleys and that fancy stuff for magazines and tv late shows.

The actual one has the blade and the narrow tip blade more wide, hence are folded into 7 folds, (with like 3 fold on the narrow blade as the tradition says) there is a version with 5 folds to save money as well as a bit fancy 12 fold, I also do that, but only got very few commissions. Let´s say is for collectors of handmade stuff who want to have one piece to see it. Some Neapolitan brands chargues 240 for one of this.

This following variants exist for ties; NOTE ALL THIS ARE MADE BY HAND with needle and fingers, the manual sewing machine( the usual ones we all got in mind operated by a seamtress) is only used to sew a few stitches on the interlining, to attach the upper and lower interling, and if the tie is lined, to sew the line.

MACHINE STITCHED BY LIBA;

On the contrary see how fast are made by the LIBA machine the commercial one sthis machine cost 200-300.000 euros and I have never seen one in person even I have been looking to see it working in person for curiosity, Marinella and others uses today this process unless a tie is commision bespoke with other measures, just on this ones would be made by hand as years before ( or as the top Neapolitan makers yet do);

MACHINE STITCHED TIE;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp-71OK5aZc

A tie is made on a few seconds.

The usual Neapolitan 7 fold (actually 6) one, The normal has two interlinings, only natural wool and cotton, no way polyester. Usually comes "selflined"; the most expensive since consumes a lot of fabric, it means the back of the tie has the exact same silk.

LINED ON MONOCOLOR; Lined when the main fabric is too heavy or to save fabric per example, brands from I learnt as Borrelli or Kiton only uses pure silk (I also was teached from those), the exact one is used to line their jackets. On the comercial brands as Brioni, Corneliani etc that only do 3 fold, they use polyester with their logo engraved on.

The linen is sewn by machine as doing it by hand would be obnoxious.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972079/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972079/)

UNLINED UNTIPPED ; the most precious one, the “gourmet” tie, has no line, have the exact same interlining as the rest, but is cutted at the bartack to hide it and the borders are handrolled. This takes several hours to do, usuallly only a wool layer of interlining is on it to make them lighter ( 2 layers for export). The side effect of this precious ties is that might lost the shape and ironing after a few uses, especially when the bartack is placed over 26cm to show all the folds, making an incredible piece of art, while the lined ones last almost forever. Is like driving a Ferrari, needs service after a few milles and should not be (abu)sed daily.http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972016/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972016/)
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972017/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972017/)
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972080/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972080/)

NOTE; ALL THE UNLINED TIES, DO HAVE THE SAME INTERLINING, NO WAY (THAT I HAVE SEEN) A TIE IS MADE WITHOUT INTERLINING (only for experimental or bespoked that way for any particular reason, EVEN ARE CALLED UNLINED, but the interlining is cutted where the bartack is, to make them more beautiful showing just the back of the main fabric.

I love this ones, specially when the fabric is jaquard; those who are not printed by inks, but the intrincated design from crossing threads, so you can see the "soul" of the fabric. Example is attached.

Since the folds are not seen by the rest of the people, it doesn´t adds any elegance to the outfit, that is sadly the truth, but is like a special magical fetish for those who like handmade garments and each tie is different to the other from the imperfections of sewing by hand.

5 FOLD SELFLINED, with machine made edges, economic version of the 7 one, note the edges are not as beautiful from the following ones by hand.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972021/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972021/)

7 FOLD ( actually 6), SELFLINED;

The tie uses the same fabric as on the main face on the back, is made by hand suing only the manual sewing machine( not the Liba) to sew the back,lining and interlining, consumes more fabric, is the most sold.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972162/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972162/)

12 FOLD TIES, This are not traditional, but interesting to own and see.

Note the bartack is close to be at 30 cms as special request of the client for the reddish tie, as higher as possible or even more. The owner and me proud to be his pupil, whose mother owns the Gold Medal of the Italian Senate given decades ago as best Arthisan of Italy at his time had to do this personally.

Commercial ties do have it placed at 12- 14 cms giving that closed letter like
industrial effect.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972034/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972034/)

NOTE THE ULTRA NARROW HAND ROLL, THE MOST TIME TAKING AND DIFFICULT TO MADE.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972033/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972033/)

INDUSTRIAL 3 FOLD TIE; See this commercial 3 fold tie, lined on monocolor polyester ( I assume) See the bartack very low and cheaply looking, and commercial industrial looking. The usual garment everybody understands as tie.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972027/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972027/)

As a note of the highest quality possible, the roll has to be the narrowest as the fabric allows, on commercial ties as Ralph Lauren, even is a nice tie made in Italy, are
made very fast, and has very few stitches and huge borders, to have the biggest industrial benefit, making as much as possible on the less time.

BAD HAND MADE ROLL;

See this(I don´t like bashing opponents, I do not know this brand, just took the random pic from Google), the fabric is good ( Actually Tussah raw silk), and looks good, but note the handroll is made very fast, very thick and doesn´t looks very good. Is no Neapolitan but an imitation, takes a few minutes to do.

See this not good made tie, the hand roll is thick, irregular and rookie made and would not pass any quality control in Naples by any brand; Note as well the bartack is made fast and placed very low instead of high.http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972029/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972029/)

This tie looks pretty interesting but has thick handroll, it is made quite fast.
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972067/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972067/)

POOR HAND MADE ROLL ( This is flat and usually seen on Ralph Lauren made in Italy ties, even this one is Drakes) Made on a few seconds, simply poor. This is a gimmick to say is made by hand ( actually it is, but with poor quality) to hook/fool people and charge a hand made price to a tie that is indeed made by hand but with a quality that better to do by machine and lower the price as this, well, I got no words for “this”.
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972065/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972065/)

GOOD HANDMADE ROLL;

Note the ultranarrow handroll, the most difficult and time requesting to make. (hours)

Note 12 folds;

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972048/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972048/)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972081/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972081/)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972082/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972082/)

BAD KNOT (not sure if this is due from bad skills of the gentleman this unpro mix of Windsor and Four in Hand,or the tie is simply bad) Is the prior shown tie.http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972032/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972032/)

GOOD KNOT (7 fold unlined untipped, gives the same proper classic Four in Hand knot as on a 3 fold ) Gent is me, sorry, not pretending to be narcissistic, simply do not have other picture at hand), note I like the knots more thin and narrow yet, specially on the bottom)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972031/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972031/)
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972057/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972057/)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972061/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972061/)

To ilustrate, the back of this ties are “unlined untipped”, hence the interlining is cutted at the bartack, to allow the tip seen nude but already the interlining is used, otherwise the tie would behave as a hot spagguetti, with no shape;

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972062/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972062/)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972060/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972060/)

Also, another mark of the Neapolitan tradition of the highest quality possible, is to place the bartack, the travetto, as high as possible, usually 26 or 27 cms from the tip. The Liba machine or commercial ties have the bartack as lowest as possible. Look for it that when buying a tie.

GOOD BARTACK, made by hand like a shirt handmade embroided buttonhole;http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972055/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972055/)
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972056/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972056/)
The English fabrics used.
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972171/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972171/)

BAD BARTACK (not necessary “bad” but not good enough for the prices requested ( random pics from Google, got no idea who made this, is actual, but sure no way Neapolitan) This way were made in Naples on the 70´s as I have renewed, reshaped almost all Italian brand ties for clients who gives us old ties with beautiful fabrics to refurbish at nowadays top standards.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972077/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972077/)

Note different Non Neapolitan ways, this same maker as before is putting the bartack of the narrow blade very high, maybe is trying to do his own different product (good idea), maybe is trying to do a step beyond or “Sprezzatura” or however that word of mixing and exagerating,parodying all the classical features as possible (Non traditional but fashionista, bad idea OMHO, Pittiesque)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972078/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972078/)

Note this ties lacks of the internal pulling thread, the “ soul” of a tie. Or at least I do not see it.

THE SOUL OF A HANDMADE TIE;

So many of you have wondered as me the first time I handled one, for what purpose is this thread on the back of the narrow blade but selfrealiced once you get back home and untie the knot, the tie gets ruffled but once you pull of the thread and the tie gets back to the original way. That is the thread from the tie is stitched on, the soul of the handmade tie.

Usually are done in black thread, I like to use the matching color.

Note, there are machine made ties that are starting to feature this( the ones shown here are all done by me or on the factories I practised on)

This one is LINED ON OTHER MATERIAL;

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972084/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972084/)

SELFLINED, see the thread, the “soul”.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972085/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972085/)

UNLINED UNTIPPED.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972170/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972170/)

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972086/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972086/)

RANDOM EXAMPLES OF LINING, ALL IN 7(6) FOLDhttp://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972163/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972163/)
http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972168/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1972168/)

BAD TIE;

Just got this pic of a Neapolitan tie I can´t consider good. The handroll is FLATPRESSED, HAS NO ROLL, NO ROLLED EDGES, just flat pressed,is fastly made even is indeed made by hand.

SHOULD AVOID this things (unless bought very cheap) even the rest of the tie looks nicely made. The maker of this tie should not do this gimmick, specially if he calls himself “Prince of Elegance from Naples”, I am sorry to say, duke (well, let´s be respetuous with the real dukes), lets call him “Dude of cheaply made unties" lol. First time I see a small flat pressed edge on a tie, I pointed out the Ralph Lauren and one Drakes who did this but with very big edges.

http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1973342/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL (http://www.styleforum.net/content/type/61/id/1973342/)

I wish you a merry Christmas to all of you!!!

Un saludo